11-25-2007, 01:06 AM
K.Venugopal Online!
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Title:Immobile Wanderer
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Isn't Islam an idol worshiping religion?
I contend that Islam is an idol worshiping religion. When I say this, it would be surmised that I am out to create mischief because it is universally understood that Islam is dead against idol worship. But I do not level this charge to taunt Muslims out of any spite. I love Muslims. They are as human as anyone else. My problem is with the claim of Islam that it does not believe in idol worship.In fact all worship is idol worship. It is not possible to worship except that worship be idol worship. The condition of idol worship is that there be a worshipper and a thing worshiped. Muslims might say that there is no “thing” that a Muslim worships. That what they worship is only the unimaginable power called Allah who created the universe. Be it so, except that they have a need to reduce that unimaginable power to a word “Allah”. A sound idol, I might say and the Muslim will say I am merely quibbling to provoke.However, my deeper reason to declare Muslims to be the idol worshipers they would rather die than admit is that Islam considers Allah, the creator, as separate from His creation. This means that when we, the creation or creature want to connect with Allah, we have perforce to turn outwards – ever so symbolically seen when the common Muslim raises his vision upwards when he wishes to thank Allah in ordinary conversation. Of course in formal prayers Muslims turn towards Mecca – which becomes the central point to which they direct their prayers. Add to this the fact that the central point contains a huge cube structure, which if the Muslims can get near enough they would lavishly kiss, completes the case that the Muslims are indeed idol worshippers.The case becomes all the more apparent when we consider that there is a successful ancient teaching called Adviata which even today continues to be the undercurrent of the oldest religion in the world – Hinduism. Advaita says that God is actually what we essentially are and is not a phenomenon separate from us whom we have to seek for outside and idolize concretely, as Hindu idol-worshippers do - or turn into a faith, as Muslims do.
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Idolatry may be defined as supposing that a particular object, concrete or imagined, would intercede to help us or soothe us when we direct our supplications towards it. As per this definition, all religions extant are idolatrous. It is only when we come to the understanding that we are indeed the God we worship that idolatry ceases, because then there is no supplication but only an awakening to the truth.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lava
if somene you loved was dead and if you had his belonging that doesnot make you a idol worshipper. you only look at his belonging and remember his existance. there is a difference between this and asking help from objects.
That which is not you, the subject, is an object. Depending on the object we choose to worship, we have our different religions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman
Allah and it's aramaic predecessor is a descriptor, not a proper name.
You are right. It simply cannot be a proper name because that would be anthropomorphizing our concept of God and it would surely be idolatry. But even as a descriptor, it is our usage to describe our concept of the absolute. And as various are our languages and cultures, we use various words to denote the absolute - God, Allah, Ishwar etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightBlue
In my view, the idols we make in our minds are every bit as deceptive and illusory as idols made of metal or stone
I would say that idols, whether made of stones or of our imagination, are of a kind; but I wouldn't say that as such idols are deceptive or illusory. Idols are aids for us to understand the ultimate. It would become deceptive and illusory only if we are unable to eventually drop the idols and get to the ultimate. Which is why they say that you may be born in a temple but do not die in a temple.
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"Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers"~Prophet Muhammed(PBUH)~
This, quoted by UnityNow101, is refuted by many verses in the Quran which distinctly point to a different fate for the believers (in Islam) and non-believers (in Islam). The brotherhood is restricted to the brotherhood of Islamic believers.
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"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy me, the sinner." Quoted by Mister Emu.
That we are sinners is a thought that is the cause of all man's problems. This breeds a sense of lack. And to make up for that lack we keep doing endless things. There is an ancient teaching that says "Tvam Amritasya Putraha", meaning - you are children of immortality. We would free ourselves from all conflicts within our mind if we begin seeing perfection in all our actions as well as our circumstances.
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1. Why single out the Muslim faith for this discussion?
2. What religion, (if any) are you?
1. I was not singling out Islam or anything like that. It just happened to be the subject of what I wanted to write.
2. As a Hindu (by which I mean the tradition I was born into), telling you what my religion is is a bit difficult. You see, in the Hindu culture, you have all the freedom to choose any particular path of worship, belief or technique towards God or divinity. Being thus given the freedom, I am simply convincing myself that I am perfect and my circumstances are perfect and whenever I feel otherwise (which was always in the beginning and a lot less nowadays) I meditate (in my own way) to see what I think is the reality. So you can say, as far as identity goes, I am a Hindu. But from the point of view of the ultimate Hindu teachings, identity is the very antithesis of spirituality. Therefore I would say that in passing I am a Hindu, but ultimately I am no one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Amin~
Allah this word, encompasses all that Allah has revealed of Himself.
If Allah the word can encompass all that Allah has revealed of Himself, then why can't a solid idol do the same of God for the idol-worshipper?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Amin~
If i know get a pen and paper and write Allah it doesnt meanGod is IN THAT WORD
Without uttering the word Allah or without reading the word Allah in the Quran, would you have got to know Allah? Similarly, iconography is another way to know God. To the extent you've got to know Allah through the spoken or written word, to that extent Allah does exist in the word. However great Allah is, we've got to conceive him through our limited mind. Our limited mind and senses would always do well with help, whether through idols or the telescope.
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A symbol is something that represents something else. Similarly, an idol as seen in temples represents God. My original query was, does Ka’aba represent God? Muslims certainly do not think so. They consider it blasphemy to associate anything with God and do not represent Him in any form. Hindus, on the other hand, associate each and everything with God and have no problems in representing God in any form. My thesis is that however much Islam teaches the exclusivity of Allah, in practical application, the Muslim is in need of idols as much as any idol-worshiping Hindu. Total freedom from idols of all sorts may be the prerogative of only a microscopic minority in every generation, the totally spiritualized individuals. For the rest of us, we are all in the same idols-bearing boat.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous
No, the idol is the god. Icons represent god.
Being from a culture of idol worshippers par excellence, may I point out that till certain ceremonies are conducted, an idol remains lifeless. After the ceremony, the idol is surcharged with subtle vibrations of life forces which would enable the idol-worshipper to be transported to divine levels. The science of transforming an icon that represents God to an idol that is surcharged with the subtle divine vibrations is a science that is still extant with the Hindus. No hocus pocus here. If we can't conjure idols, mercy on God that we have been allowed to keep icons.
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What constitutes worship
In the on-going discussion on idol worship, I think at this point we need to define what exactly constitutes worship.
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I think it can be safely said that any form of action directed with reverence to God is worship. Since prayers are per se reverential, it is no doubt worship. The question is, can worship be directed to anything other than God? We hear of, for instance, Satan worship. Or is the word 'worship', like so many other words, often used metaphorically as is the wont of all language users? In this respect Prophet Mohammad was quoted in a hadidth saying that worship is not merely an external form, its essence is indeed the internal state of mind. Mohammad went on to say that if the approach is right, even legitimate sex is worship and would be rewarded by Allah. This surprised his companions who asked, "How are we going to be rewarded for doing something we enjoy very much?" The Prophet asked them, "Suppose you satisfy your desires illegally, don't you think you will be punished for that?" They replied, "Yes." "So," he said, "by satisfying it legitimately, you are rewarded for it." The hadith concludes, “This means, they - legitimate sexual intercourse - are acts of worship.”This indicates that for Mohammad the very act of living legitimately is worship. Is it the format or the intention of the worshipper that is paramount in worship? Should not the worthiness or sanctity of the worshipped be left to the choice of the worshipper?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyJim
Yep! You are 100% correct as Mohamed is their idol just as Christ is for the Christians. Jim
Here I think the usage of idol is as in, say, hero. To be fair, what is generally understood as idols in religions is a solid figurine which is worshipped with the believe that the figurine has the ultimate power residing in it. Hindus are of course the world's most famous idol worshippers. But it is also to be noted that no Hindu believes that God is only in the figurine and nowhere else. In fact Hindus believe that God is everywhere just as electricity is everywhere. But in order that we may address that power with our limited senses, such figurines (idols) are consecrated by spiritual masters through special processes, just as electricity is tapped for our day-to-day use through electrical engineering. The original question of this thread was whether Muslims also inter-alia worship idols, though they are not supposed to. The jury is still out on this.
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In the religious context, I find the question difficult to answer. If I were to say I am a Hindu or a Christian, I would only be denoting the membership of a community. I do not want to belong to any community as far as religion is concerned because I believe the best teachings in religions ought to lead us to spirituality, which is the very antithesis of identity. However, in the context of being proud of a culture that says, "Truth is one and it can be expressed variously" and has successfully exemplified it in its long history, I am a Hindu. I am particularly proud of Swami Vivekananda and Dr. Hedgewar, who awakened India to its spiritual and social heritage respectively.
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We are all idol worshippers
Strictly speaking, worship is an act of reverence directed to God or whom or what we suppose is God. The word worship used in other contexts is only a metaphorical usage - like, he's the star of the team - worshipped by fans across the country. Since Muslims say there is only one God and that God is invisible, they would certainly not be worshipping anything that we can see in this world. This being so, if a Muslim comes upon a person worshiping a stone, he would naturally feel that the worship is erroneous because the stone is not God. He would however, have failed to see the following:
Strictly speaking, worship is an act of reverence directed to God or whom or what we suppose is God. The word worship used in other contexts is only a metaphorical usage - like, he's the star of the team - worshipped by fans across the country. Since Muslims say there is only one God and that God is invisible, they would certainly not be worshipping anything that we can see in this world. This being so, if a Muslim comes upon a person worshiping a stone, he would naturally feel that the worship is erroneous because the stone is not God. He would however, have failed to see the following:
1. A person worshiping an idol may have the following reasons:
(a) He understands that the idol, by special processes, has the presence of God in an intensity he can relate to.
(b) That God is not restricted to the idol but God has given an opportunity for him,with his limited senses, to grasp His munificence by approaching Him at a focal point in a temple to pray for blessings.
(c) That an idol is not the be all and end all of his interaction with God - all idols come with its own traditions and mythologies and incantations and scriptures and teachings, and temple histories and last but not least, religions.
2. That even though a Muslim is instructed to worship none but Allah, he cannot, being a normal human being of limited senses, conceive the invisible Allah and therefore would necessarily have to reduce Allah to the level of his capacity toconceive the invisible and that can only be in the form of idols, whether by usage of the word Allah, or Ka'aba as direction marker or prayer at fixed times.3. That though the form of worship and concept of God may differ between different religions, all worshippers are human and therefore given the same circumstances, their experiences are likely to be alike.In conclusion, worship of God or Gods mean just that - a communion between humans and the ultimate power or powers, which we can never conceive except in human ways. Therefore all worship is necessarily idol worship.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almifkhar
...the direction in which we pray is assoicated as the place that the creator dwells...
I think you are in error here because Muslims do not pray towards a particular direction (like East or West) but towards a particular spot marked by the Ka'aba. Are you saying the creator dwells in Ka'aba?
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The question of believe in God arises only if you consider God as being separate from you. For me God is a word used to denote our highest potential and destiny. For me religion is all about striving towards our highest potential and destiny. Actually we are already THAT - we have just to wake up to this truth.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
No Allah just told us to face that way. Read ayat ul kursi in the Quran. that describes Allah you think He can dwell at the Kaba? If so you really have no idea what we believe about Allah do you.
About Allah dwelling at the Kaba, I was asking almifkhar, who had written "... the direction in which we pray is assoicated as the place that the creator dwells ...". I didn't quite understand him. About my having an idea of what Muslims believe about Allah, I have understood as much to note that Allah is the entity to whom Muslims are expected to be slaves to. However, I have been exposed to teachings that, far from teaching that our destiny is to be slaves of God, teach that we are the God we worship.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Really so how are we God? What attributes of God do we possess? Well maybe we should start by you defining what God is. Because we may have a different understanding.
This sounds promising. I would really like to discuss the subject of God with you. I shall take your last sentence first and comment on it. You concede the possibility of our having a different understanding [about God]. I am almost certain that your position is that there is only one definition of God that is possible and that is as defined in the Quran. However, I would fundamentally differ from one aspect of God that is stated in the Quran - that the Creator is different from the created. I say, no - the Creator and the created are one. This is very easily seen if we note that:
(1) the only thing that is true about the Creator that is not true about the created is the infinity of the Creator. What is born (created) must die.
(2) I am still me if I loose my hands and legs in an accident. You will commiserate my condition but you will still recognize me as I lie on the hospital bed. Now the question is, when would I cease being myself? When I die, of course.
(3) But do I die? What would be recognized as my death would only be the proof of my lifeless-body. But my life did not die. How can life die? Despite loss of my body, I continue to have my life - for you see, I too left my body with my life – nay, I am the life that left my body. Can life die? Can I die? Therefore am I not infinite? Isn’t God infinite?
Ergo, I am God.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Well if there is only one God, then there is only one way of looking at Him. Logically there can only be one God, one Creator.
Who says so? There can be many ways of looking at a thing. Please tell me why it is logical that there can be only one God, one Creator?
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
How? when the creation is created, and the Creator is not. they are opposite by the definition of the word.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
How? when the creation is created, and the Creator is not. they are opposite by the definition of the word.
Creator and created are one as the ocean and the waves are one or as the dancer and the dance are one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
really? this is the only thing you can come up with? As I said earlier you need to define the Creator. who is He, what do you know Him as? What does He do?
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
really? this is the only thing you can come up with? As I said earlier you need to define the Creator. who is He, what do you know Him as? What does He do?
The creator is Eternal and the created is transient. We, the created, can discover the Creator by discovering the eternal within us. I need not ask you how you would define the Creator. You are simply likely to quote Allah in the Quran. Nevertheless, please do quote Allah, so that we can discuss here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
but when does the Creator ever stop being Himself, or less then Himself. Never.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
but when does the Creator ever stop being Himself, or less then Himself. Never.
Did I say that the Creator ever stops being Himself or less than Himself?
Life is indivisible. Only forms are changed. You would say Allah gives life and takes away life. I say life orders itself in various ways and those various expressions of life are named variously - Creator and created, for instance. But when the drama of life is over, life remains – perchance to enact another drama.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
As I said, before you start to elaborate on your proofs, you need to elaborate more on your views of God. for I am not sure where this is coming from like what is your souce, nor can I make out a complete picture on what you view Allah as and how you define Him.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
As I said, before you start to elaborate on your proofs, you need to elaborate more on your views of God. for I am not sure where this is coming from like what is your souce, nor can I make out a complete picture on what you view Allah as and how you define Him.
I have been talking about my views of God. Now you want to know the source. Truly it has been said in the Quran that Muslims are a people of the book. I might emphasize, THE BOOK. What source would you accept unless it is from THE BOOK? But let me tell you, the source of my views on God are from my own self.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
do you not think that Allah knows everything? isn't that another quality of Allah, His infinite knowledge of all that exists.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
do you not think that Allah knows everything? isn't that another quality of Allah, His infinite knowledge of all that exists.
You speak as if you know Allah personally. You are only going by the book He sent down in which He claims to have all knowledge. I am not worried whether Allah knows everything or not. That is not relevant for me. What is relevant for me is to know what I am all about. I have access to many sources that give me a clue and encourage me to pursue the clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Please as I said elaborate more on you views of allah but I think it is best if you start another post. for continuing on with this for we will get off the topic, of which i am still waiting for an evidence for. Ie. you proving to me Islam is an idol worshipping relgion? And like above you should start by elaborating on what you think idol worship is? and then by going into how you view Islam is idol worship in light of whatever evidence you manage to find if any.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Please as I said elaborate more on you views of allah but I think it is best if you start another post. for continuing on with this for we will get off the topic, of which i am still waiting for an evidence for. Ie. you proving to me Islam is an idol worshipping relgion? And like above you should start by elaborating on what you think idol worship is? and then by going into how you view Islam is idol worship in light of whatever evidence you manage to find if any.
If the happenings at Tirupati temple - the biggest temple of Hindu idol worshippers - and what happens at Mecca masjid, albeit on select days, are compared, much commonality of rituals would be noticed. These rituals, unique at Mecca for Muslims, are visibly centered on objects of reverence (or hatred, in the case of stoning the idols of evil Satan) and cannot be denied. If you still maintain Allah is worshipped directly without idols, I would ask you, would your worship at Mecca be complete without the rituals?
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Dear Mujahid Mohammad, I appreciate your detailed response and I studied it carefully and I am giving a detailed response. The essence of what I have to say and the disagreement between us, it appears, is:1. Whether the Creator and created are one? My view is that if Islam maintains that the creator and creation are separate, it is only because the Quran has not made the connection between the creator and the created explicit. The connection, explicit in the teachings of Hinduism, is life itself. All creation is life, as Creator is life. 2. Whether Islam is an idol-worshipping religion? I maintain the very separation of Creator and created by Islam has led to the concomitant belief that there is somebody out there to be worshipped, making Islamic worship idol worship in nature because here worship needs an object to be worshiped in the form of Allah. Hinduism is obviously an idol worshiping religion. But it has as its core the understanding that we are what we worship and therefore at its highest stage drops all worship and seeks self-realization and because the focus is not external, but the internal subject itself, no idol worship is involved.Now here is a detailed response to what you wrote. I have taken your sincere writing seriously and I thought I would do justice to it only if I reply in detail.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Allah says so for one. The other semetic religions as well.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Allah says so for one. The other semetic religions as well.
You said, “Well if there is only one God, then there is only one way of looking at Him.” In reply to that I asked, “Who said so?” You say, “Allah says so for one”. If I ask you to prove, you would of course quote the Quran. Since Quran is the work of Allah through Mohammad, let me tell you that long before Mohammad, a work of Allah through Krishna, called the Bhagwad Geeta (it would be right to call it Allah Geeta, but the work is in Sanskrit and the Sanskrit word for Arabic Allah is Bhagwan) says that there are many ways to approach God. So could we be pitting Allah’s earlier word against his later word? Since Allah could not have made a mistake ever, it is upto us, the followers of Allah’s works of Quran, Bhagwad Geeta, Bible etc. to reconcile ‘differences’. If we are not able to, maybe we are not being philosophical enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Well if God is the Creator there can only be one because by Definition if the Creator is Eternal.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Well if God is the Creator there can only be one because by Definition if the Creator is Eternal.
In other words, there cannot be two eternals and creation is not eternal. The question is, do we have in us that which is eternal? Islam, believing that the Creator and Created are separate, does not believe that we, the created, have the eternal within us. There are religions which believe that we have the eternal within us and what dies is only our transient body. That thing within us which is eternal is nothing other than life itself. Would you say that Allah has no life? If Allah has life, it has to be the same life that we have. Only, Allah enjoys eternal life. We don’t appear to because we identify our fate with the fate of our body. When we identify with the life within us, we would also enjoy eternal life. Life is life, whether in a mosquito, man or God. The nature of life is that it is eternal, all knowing and all bliss. The whole story of creation is how life manifests forms (matter), that is, how the eternal manifests as the transient, how the subtle became the coarse and yet ceased not to be eternal and subtle and ever alive. Even a stone is with life.
I agree.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Created things have a beginning, and like all things with a beginning they have an end.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Created things have a beginning, and like all things with a beginning they have an end.
I agree.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
And the end depends all upon what the Creator wants. Especially if He, Himself has control and power over all things.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
And the end depends all upon what the Creator wants. Especially if He, Himself has control and power over all things.
The Creator/God/Life has no wants except to celebrate itself. There is no need for God to control anything.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
if He, Allah is as most people define Him as then it is unrealistic and logical for somehting which has no beginning and something that has no end as being the same.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
if He, Allah is as most people define Him as then it is unrealistic and logical for somehting which has no beginning and something that has no end as being the same.
You say this because you miss the truth that the created also has something that is eternal and that is life itself.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
something that is Free of All needs and something that relies on the creation of the Creator for survival are never and can never be the same. The Creator, Allah whose Knowledge and Strength are Infinite and never diminish cannot be the same as something whose knowledge and strength is limited to the measure of what the Creator gives.
Life was neither created nor will it be destroyed. Life is. God is.
Agreed ocean, waves, dance, dancer are all created by God. But if you can see that the ocean and waves are one, though waves have an identity of its own briefly, it will give you a clue as to how man and God are one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Look at mars they say at one point there was a ocean or water there. Same for certain regions on the earth. All things are created by Allah. They are given their existence and all the things dealing with it from Him.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Look at mars they say at one point there was a ocean or water there. Same for certain regions on the earth. All things are created by Allah. They are given their existence and all the things dealing with it from Him.
Agreed.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
We are not talking about the Quran we are talking about realistic concepts based on the how we define things. It is in the definition of the word.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
We are not talking about the Quran we are talking about realistic concepts based on the how we define things. It is in the definition of the word.
Here you say that it is possible to “talk about realistic concepts based on how we define things”. But elsewhere your only argument is that “it is said in the Quran”.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Create: To bring something into existence, from the latin word creat which means bring forth.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Create: To bring something into existence, from the latin word creat which means bring forth.
True. But never from nothing.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
everything we use in our daily lives was there and we did not cause it to exist. The earth and all the things and delicate balances that are needed in order for our existence.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
everything we use in our daily lives was there and we did not cause it to exist. The earth and all the things and delicate balances that are needed in order for our existence.
I have no quarrel with the idea of God creating everything.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
There are countless science and biology resources of information that expound about how if this particular thing was off, or temperature removed or if this did not happen at this moment, with this amount of energy then this and that could not exist.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
There are countless science and biology resources of information that expound about how if this particular thing was off, or temperature removed or if this did not happen at this moment, with this amount of energy then this and that could not exist.
Of course, everything is in harmony. There is an ancient Sanskrit word for harmony and that is Dharma.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Well if you say that the Creator and the creation are one, then yes you are saying that. What do you mean? Same in what? Essence? Strengh? Existence? Leave out all the other attributes. Lets just say Eternal Creator. Clearly as I said by the definition of the word the Creator is never and can never be the creation.
As I have said above, the Creator is none other than the life in us. The link between us and the truth about our life is our consciousness. Spirituality is all about refining our consciousness and this linking process in the ancient language of Sanskrit is called Yoga.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
the Creator gives and puts His Will in the Creation. He gave it its spirit and life.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
the Creator gives and puts His Will in the Creation. He gave it its spirit and life.
This seems to be near to what I am saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Everything we and the universe as a whole, do in whatever time we are given to exist and the manner by which we carry it out is given to us by Allah. We walk upright becasue Allah created us to. The fish swim with gills in water because he created them with those things that give them the ability to do it. They cannot change it. It is not judged by our own wisdom. can a human being create a brain. And give it all its abilitites. Can you yourself cause more time for you to live. Who controls that, who legislates it. Do these things in the cosmos or the universe have the knowledge to know the details to travel at this orbit at this rate in this place and we will not bump into each other. Do we decide what we will look like or what we will be or does it just happen like that . The Creator by definition created us and everything.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Everything we and the universe as a whole, do in whatever time we are given to exist and the manner by which we carry it out is given to us by Allah. We walk upright becasue Allah created us to. The fish swim with gills in water because he created them with those things that give them the ability to do it. They cannot change it. It is not judged by our own wisdom. can a human being create a brain. And give it all its abilitites. Can you yourself cause more time for you to live. Who controls that, who legislates it. Do these things in the cosmos or the universe have the knowledge to know the details to travel at this orbit at this rate in this place and we will not bump into each other. Do we decide what we will look like or what we will be or does it just happen like that . The Creator by definition created us and everything.
What you are saying here is how great Allah is. But this is not an observation that is unique to Islam. Much before Islam men have been glorifying God. However, men have also gone beyond glorifying, again before Islam, and discovered that we are that which we have been glorifying.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
And He created it with a purpose, every part of every living being is there with a purpose. Your eyes, ear, legs, liver, lungs, heart all do what they do with a purpose. All to help in your existence. they were given to you as a human being in order so that you exist. Why? Why are these things given to us by the Creator and they have a purpose in keeping us alive. Is there something we are supposed to do? Do we ourselves have a purpose for existence.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
And He created it with a purpose, every part of every living being is there with a purpose. Your eyes, ear, legs, liver, lungs, heart all do what they do with a purpose. All to help in your existence. they were given to you as a human being in order so that you exist. Why? Why are these things given to us by the Creator and they have a purpose in keeping us alive. Is there something we are supposed to do? Do we ourselves have a purpose for existence.
Islam’s answer as to what man’s purpose is would be that man has been created to be a good slave of Allah. I do not hold that view. The inherent goal and purpose of individual human beings is to discover what life is all about and celebrate. This discovery is completed over many life-times. This is of course contrary to what Islam teaches. [Here I must make a distinction between Allah and Islam. Islam does not contain all knowledge that mankind has been privy too over the ages. Mankind’s knowledge ever grows, whereas Muslims have locked Islam in the Quran and have decided that not a word can be subtracted or added. Therefore Quran is a limited book. In most other religions, including Christianity, new interpretations make the religions versatile.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
All the vital organs we got in a package we did not get them on a earn as you go program. If not we could not exist. Whatever you only got one of you can't make it without it. Why? Why are these things given to us with the purpose of keeping us alive? We are given them for this life so what are we to do with all these gifts. Gifts we ourselves cannot give to each other. Look how many people are waiting for organs. If we as the creation can create like the Creator everyone would have what they need. so ask yourself why do I have all these great things, all these fruits, people to interact with, things that we took from the Earth to make the things we use in our daily lives.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
All the vital organs we got in a package we did not get them on a earn as you go program. If not we could not exist. Whatever you only got one of you can't make it without it. Why? Why are these things given to us with the purpose of keeping us alive? We are given them for this life so what are we to do with all these gifts. Gifts we ourselves cannot give to each other. Look how many people are waiting for organs. If we as the creation can create like the Creator everyone would have what they need. so ask yourself why do I have all these great things, all these fruits, people to interact with, things that we took from the Earth to make the things we use in our daily lives.
I think we need not belittle the capacity of humans. We are certainly much more than slaves.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
No I say the one who gave the existence is the one can cause it not not exist because all the strength and ability to exist is created by Allah also and fashioned for us in order for us to exist. What if He decides to remove those things. Like the Buick cannot tell the manufacturer to disassemble him, or add certain features. It is made how it is made. Now to compare People and Buicks to Human beings and creation is a rather crude analogy for they do not compare for we are more complex but you get the point.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
No I say the one who gave the existence is the one can cause it not not exist because all the strength and ability to exist is created by Allah also and fashioned for us in order for us to exist. What if He decides to remove those things. Like the Buick cannot tell the manufacturer to disassemble him, or add certain features. It is made how it is made. Now to compare People and Buicks to Human beings and creation is a rather crude analogy for they do not compare for we are more complex but you get the point.
Whatever else Allah removes, he is not going to remove Himself from anywhere. But yes, in the game of creation, he hides Himself. Verily, creation is hidden Allah. Man’s goal is to discover the hidden Allah.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Only for those still alive. What about the one who it is over for. does it remain for them? And what happens exactly? Nothing?
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Only for those still alive. What about the one who it is over for. does it remain for them? And what happens exactly? Nothing?
Though we say so and so died, the truth is that is not a who that dies but a what that dies. Our body dies, but we never die.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Yeah is to unreasonable or something to ask where you got this stuff from. I accept anything as the truth from an individual if they present it.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Yeah is to unreasonable or something to ask where you got this stuff from. I accept anything as the truth from an individual if they present it.
Again, truly people of the BOOK. Why is it important to trace the source of whatever I said. Take it at face value. If they sound reasonable, accept it, otherwise reject it. I am no scholar or authority on any book. However, I must concede that most of what I said is common knowledge among the Hindus.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Like if someone gives me a book by Stephen King, it may be pretty easy to prove that he wrote it or this idea came from him. Again a crude comparison because as I said the creation cannot compare with the qualites and attributes of Allah, any good somewhat moral character we have comes from Him also. So a novel by Stephen King can never be compared to a book written by Allah. And they have to be looked at in light of the author. Now if you are talking about God, then God would surely have something to say on Himself and whatever He say is truth. All religious people generally say that about whatever God they worship. And who would know himself better then Allah, since none have seen him.
Allah’s book and Stephan King’s books both have their own value. Moreover, what is contained in the Quran is what has come out of the higher consciousness obtained by Mohammad during his periods of meditation, which started at Mount Herat. He ‘wrote’ the book over a period of 27 years, dictating to his companions and it was collated into a book by Caliph Othman after Mohammad passed away. Whatever, I have no quarrel with your claim that Allah wrote the Quran. Only I do not believe that the Quran is the last book that Allah wrote. Just as he wrote books before Quran, likewise he has written books, through those who have understood him, after Quran also. The scripture of the Sikh religion is a well-known example. Why should I think God stopped writing after the 6th century?
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Oh, so did God speak to your or something, in a dream, a vision, manifestation or something? Or are these concepts and observations you have come up with? Either way please elaborate.
God speaks in a million ways and God speaks to everyone. Whatever I have come up with is my own work.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Really? But since He created you and everything you see. Don't you think at the bare minimum whether you believe he knows it all or not. The fact that He created all you know that exists is relevant especially if you wanting to know you you are all about as you say. who better to ask then the one who created you and everything that exists that supports your existence which He caused.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Really? But since He created you and everything you see. Don't you think at the bare minimum whether you believe he knows it all or not. The fact that He created all you know that exists is relevant especially if you wanting to know you you are all about as you say. who better to ask then the one who created you and everything that exists that supports your existence which He caused.
I have no need to test Allah as to whether he knows everything or not.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Like what? You said the information was coming from you.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Like what? You said the information was coming from you.
The source of what I say is undoubtedly Hinduism. But it wouldn’t bother me if someone were to say that what I said is not Hinduism. Therefore what I say would stand or fall by its own logic.
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Sure because they are not the same. for one there are no graven images in the masjid. So sacred statues of deities, or human beings. the only object of worship for us as muslims is the unseen God, Allah we do not know what He looks like hence we cannot construct an idol of him.
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Sure because they are not the same. for one there are no graven images in the masjid. So sacred statues of deities, or human beings. the only object of worship for us as muslims is the unseen God, Allah we do not know what He looks like hence we cannot construct an idol of him.
But there is a stone there. What is it doing in the middle of your most sacred place of worship? For an idol worshiper that is akin to the idol he has in the centre of his temple. If you say the idol has no significance in your worship, why have it in a place of prayer? Why not keep it in a museum for its worth? Just like a strand of hair from Mohammad’s beard is kept in a strong-room adjacent to a Mosque in Kashmir. Allah is of course the unseen God, but not the unheard God. If you can hear Allah through the Quran, why did Mohammad grudge those who could see Allah through idols?
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Allah who we cannot see told us to caste the stones, like the Messenger did before when he threw stones at the Devil. Allah said throw them so we throw them. do we worship the stones, pray to them ask them for forgiveness. Are they what we focus our worship on or they are the object of our it. Are the stones we throw telling us to throw them. Who is telling us to do this. How is Allah worshipped exactly with idol? since you say it cannot be without. What idols are you speaking of?
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Allah who we cannot see told us to caste the stones, like the Messenger did before when he threw stones at the Devil. Allah said throw them so we throw them. do we worship the stones, pray to them ask them for forgiveness. Are they what we focus our worship on or they are the object of our it. Are the stones we throw telling us to throw them. Who is telling us to do this. How is Allah worshipped exactly with idol? since you say it cannot be without. What idols are you speaking of?
Casting stones at the Devil you can’t see? Can you deny that the rituals at Mecca during Hajj is worship? And in this worship you kiss the stone embedded in the cubic structure. So even if I concede that you do not worship anything except Allah, would I be unfair in calling your worship, at least during Hajj at Mecca, to be an idol-assisted worship?
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Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Or Maybe you should clarify what an idol is to you and is it different then that of what the dictionary defines it as?
Originally Posted by Mujahid Mohammed
Or Maybe you should clarify what an idol is to you and is it different then that of what the dictionary defines it as?
Personally, for me, an idol is a thing joyous to behold. However, I do not perform any ‘worship’ of God, much less idol-worship of God. But I understand the idol-worshippers’ view and they believe God is present in idols. I also know there is no idol-worshipper who believes that God is present only in the idols and nowhere else. In fact, all idol-worshippers believe that God is present everywhere. Therefore idols are for idol-worshippers the form God has taken for the idol-worshippers to relate to God. Islam, in any case, is not free from idol worship because the very fact that Islam believes that the Creator and the created are separate with no commonality makes every worship of Muslims an idol worship because the worshipper considers the worshiped outside of him, and therefore an object, just as Hindu idol worshippers do. But in Hinduism, idol worship is a stage in the progress to realizing that the worshipper is the worshipped.
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Originally Posted by jamaesi
Looks like the OPer is woefully ignorant of the Sufi way. Oh well. I see the OP's pushing of Hinduism... that seems to be the point of this thread, Islam added as an afterthought.
Originally Posted by jamaesi
Looks like the OPer is woefully ignorant of the Sufi way. Oh well. I see the OP's pushing of Hinduism... that seems to be the point of this thread, Islam added as an afterthought.
I missed this comment earlier. I am late in realising OPer means me in this thread. I am aware of the Sufi way. Sufism is core Hinduism (the Vedantic vision) applied in Persian and Arabic cultures. I suspect Sufism existed even before Islam and coalesced with Islam to survive unhurt. Al Hillaj Mansoor was killed when he said "Ane Al Haq" or "I am the Truth", which in Islam is tantamount to claiming himself to be God. This is similar to "Aham Brahmasmi" or "I am God" of Hinduism.
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